Insolentsquid
member
Reged: 16/11/2007
Posts: 18
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Dorset police have just placed an article in the local rag to the effect that it is essential that anyone going shooting first telephones the ploice on a (given) number and gives details to avoid the risk of an armed response unit being turned out.
Any similar experiences elsewhere? and what do the team think?
Is it time to emigrate just yet?
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CptCarling
member
Reged: 21/10/2007
Posts: 102
Loc: Isle of Wight
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Is this for ALL types of shooting?
The only time I inform Plod is when we are out lamping at night and the responce I get is always one of thanks. I also wrote to the local station, along with the local ambulance service, informing them of an emergancy RVP in case of either an accident or visits from antis.
I dont agree with telling them every time, unless you have issues with the Anti-mob, in which case it's a good idea.
By telling both Police and Ambulance a given location - in National Grid Reference and discription, you can save vital time if they already know where you are. Sad as it may sound, we also have a hand-held GPS in the shoot wagon as its eaiser to give a lat & long than say "turn left at the third field past the bull" if the wheels do come off.
It is posible to go over the top, but by talking to both organisations, you not only show that you are responsible but you also demonstrate to your guns/beaters that they are in a safe enviroment.
How many pre-shoot briefings include who is a first aider or where the 1st aid kit is kept?
As for an armed response unit being turned out to reports of gunfire....unless your holding a 100 bird day in Moss Side or Brixton, it seems a little over the top!
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James_the_cripple
member
Reged: 28/10/2007
Posts: 45
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What number do you use to contact them on? Our local force will only give the 08458 505505 number which doesnt always get to the right people, and frequently some very blank replies from the operators, "you're doing what where?" Any help with getting a sensible way of contacting would be appreciated, especially the Ambulance service as I'm disabled.
I have had the whole armed response with helicopter and its no fun. The only good bit was the helo pilot searched the area with heat seeking and picked up charlie that was soon shot
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CptCarling
member
Reged: 21/10/2007
Posts: 102
Loc: Isle of Wight
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Hi James,
quick tip, when you phone, ask for the Force Control Room and the desk that deals with your area. If you can, get contact details for your local rural officer, most forces have them and they are a bloody good source of help.
as for the ambulance, just phone up your local health authority and ask for ambulance control. They do like to know where they may have to go.
As for the fox-spotting...I'd keep quiet or all the Keepers will want one!
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James_the_cripple
member
Reged: 28/10/2007
Posts: 45
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Quote:
As for the fox-spotting...I'd keep quiet or all the Keepers will want one!
Alot better than gen1 NV anyway 
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CptCarling
member
Reged: 21/10/2007
Posts: 102
Loc: Isle of Wight
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He he he.....! not sure how the LACS would view the use of police spotter planes/helicoptors for fox control!
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belmontcj
member
Reged: 27/11/2007
Posts: 38
Loc: Aberdeenshire
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Whether we like it or not, if a local force insists on imposing a condition of shooting we have little choice but to comply.
From the various letters printed in the shooting press this seems to be a growing phenomenon in an effort to reduce the time wasted by dispatching plod to confront a law abiding shooter. Personally I would rather make a 2 minute phone call than be faced with Grampians finest rappelling from an armed response air unit whilst brandishing my next renewal form!
A local shooting colleague wrote on the subject of home reloading, " If Grampian police were to insist I only reload whilst standing on one leg and whistling Eskimo Nell I would oblige." It is easy to take up a defensive stance and refuse to inform the police, but how simple will your next application for licensing be???
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ruger243
new user
Reged: 02/12/2004
Posts: 7
Loc: Essex
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belmontcj; What absolute crap and a totally defeatist attitude. Police forces do not have the authority to demand this, if you don't believe it, write to the Home Office and ask. We have lost far too much already in the shooting world to bow down to these illegal demands, I suppose at the start of WW2 you and your ilk would have said "Hitler says that he is going to over-run the UK, why object?" I assume from your stance that you either are an anti, or do not own a gun.
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belmontcj
member
Reged: 27/11/2007
Posts: 38
Loc: Aberdeenshire
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Ruger243, charming to see that eloquence is not dead in Essex. Regrettably your ability to finish reading a sentence leaves something to be desired! Would you not infer that in commenting upon a statement made by “a shooting colleague” that I may in fact shoot?
You are, of course, incorrect in the statement that the Police cannot, “Demand” that we call them prior to shooting. (Please note, to avoid further riposte the term we.) The Police can, “Demand” whatever they choose to demand, just as you or I may.
The point you are striving to reach is that there is no enforceable legislation that requires us to contact the Police prior to striding forth whilst armed! A demand is (noun) a clear and firm request.
EXCEPT, if the chief constable of your local constabulary were to enter this as a condition upon your firearms certificate, whereby failure to do so would result in a firearms offence (of the relevant section) being committed.
A wonderful illustration of this point would be for you to find the legislation that requires you to secure your firearms in a cabinet! I will save you the effort old chum, for there is no such legislation! The requirement is simply that firearms be “Stored securely to prevent unauthorised people using or taking them”
Hurrah, shall we hold a small gathering and commit our trusty steel bastions to a lonely grave? Probably not, because even if you were clinically stupid enough to attempt this approach your application would, with one exception (prizes for guessing) undoubtedly be rejected by the enquiry officer!
Stand fast though stout fellow, a man with your prodigious grasp of the Queens English would certainly appeal a decision that cannot be founded upon current legislation would he not? Almost certainly I hear you cry, and I should win!
You shall, as such a rejection would be unlawful! Be warned however that the good chief constable of Essex would simply issue you with your certificate (hence avoiding any nastiness in court) and impose an individual condition upon your certificate that you may only store the relevant weapons in a Police approved cabinet!
Peelers : 1
Ruger243 : 0
Enough hilarity though and on to the crux of my post. Like it or not we ALL answer to the Police. I agree with you completely that we have suffered at the hands of the legislature AND that we should be heard with one clear, concise voice as we defend our sport.
However, for a simple courtesy to the local plod how much hassle can you save yourself? I am not aware of the current procedures in England, but I suspect that in your 5 decades (some of us research before condemning) of wildfowling you will have been reported to the Bobbies at some point. In my locale this report, when coupled with a concern of wrongdoing, will trigger the dispatch of an armed response unit.
Personally, the prospect of a pre dawn encounter with a part time firearms cop carries enough reason to lift the phone prior to departure.
If we are to promote a better understanding of our sport/hobby/livelihood in the public domain we need plod to be on side. Better relationships will bring about a better public profile with a reduction in the number of calls to ban anything that may or may not be a firearm. This in turn reduces the column inches dedicated to bashing the law abiding majority and may help drive out the bad sorts amongst us.
To which end, Yes, we could all refuse to inform plod, but what does it achieve? On a purely selfish note, were I ever to be involved in an accident whilst in the field, I should be quite glad of their company!
And so dear Ruger243, to put this epic to bed, I shall clear up the outstanding points from your post.
1. I do own a gun, several in fact.
2. I am anti many things. Labour governments, cold breezes up your kilt, warm lager and cheap whisky to name a few!
3. Your reference to the diminutive Austrian is interesting. Was he not guilty of brazenly charging over the greater numbered good of the world with little regard for others opinion? That sounds like, “absolute crap” to me!
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Insolentsquid
member
Reged: 16/11/2007
Posts: 18
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When I posted this, and read the first few replies, I was amazed at how resigned and accepting they were - it was good to see Ruger and Belmont at least showing a bit of adrenaline!
I moved down to Dorset from North Wales some seven years ago. In my first month here I was shocked to see a headline in the local paper:
"Man with gun seen in field - armed police called"
Back 'home', at certain times of year, it would be unusual not to see a 'man with a gun' in a field!
I have shot for as long as I was legally allowed to do so - from air rifles to shotguns, smallbore and fullbore rifles, and handguns.
Do you remember handguns? - I used to own some before they were all taken away from us in the interest of 'public safety' (since which time deaths and injuries from handgun crime have tripled).
It seems that bit by bit, liberties which we have taken for granted are being taken away from us and we just aren't fighting the insiduous process.
How long will it be for example before the request to notify which led to my initial post becomes a requirement?
e.g. you have to notify to police before you take your gun from the cabinet; and of coure, account for every cartridge fired, and keep a log of each and every session?
From here it's just a short step to notifying the police and needing their OK before you are allowed to set out...
(and of course if this all becomes too much bother for you, you can always give up the sport)
bit by bit by bit.....
(- for an actual example of this, elsewhere on this website today, you will find an article about the 'voluntary' deer stalking qualifications DSC1 and 2 being latched on to by insurers and landowners and effectively being converted into a pre-requisite before consent to shoot is given.)
You're wrong Belmont, we are not accountable to the police.
We are accountable to the law, as are the police.
Far too many quangos and other bodies have been allowed to amass far too many powers to exercise control over our lives - powers never intended to be devolved to them.
Trouble is, unless the exercise of these powers are challenged and tested in a court of law, their abuse is not likely to be reviewed or controlled by the powers that be.
If the early replies to my post are anything to go by, it seems to be a case of: "roll over, and hope they bought the vaseline..."
I go back to my earlier question -
"Is it time to emigrate?!"
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belmontcj
member
Reged: 27/11/2007
Posts: 38
Loc: Aberdeenshire
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Salutations and warm wishes for 2008 dear impertinent cephalopod! I am delighted to see some entertaining debate rearing its head. My concern of late, given the lackluster responses on this superlative forum, was that the lead poisoning lobby may have been right….
First allow me to apologise, you are correct in that we are all answerable to the law. The local plod enforces said legislation and so semantics crept in, I stand duly corrected!
That said, I stand by the statement that it is surely better for all concerned to build a better relationship with the constabularies than to beckon conflict at every turn. We are fortunate in our area that there is a high level of firearms ownership, and that the Police are accustomed to dealing with all manner of enquiries. To date I have had no cause for complaint at the service provided and would commend our local firearms licensing team to all.
Amongst the few certainties in life is that shootings future will not be helped by maximizing the opportunities for conflict with the Police. Locally we share a range with the fuzz and enjoy a good relationship. Our recently engaged Wildlife Crimes Officer is of country blood and is active in communicating with the local gun owning fraternity. If the only sin the coppers have made is their choice of career, we should not encourage difficult behavior towards them!
Like your tentacled self I was weaned on air rifles and have progressed through the use of most modern firearms with the notable exception of handguns. With beginnings at my Grandpa’s side I feel privileged to have experienced the countryside in this manner.
If my own grandchildren (still a long way off I hope) are to have the same skills and enjoy the same pleasures brought about by our sport we must ensure its future is secure. This can only happen if we are all united in the defense and promotion of all disciplines of shooting.
It saddens me to see our way of life being so steadily eroded at the hands of the tabloid press, dim-witted politicians and reactionary governments. Only today the BBC carried news of our home secretary pressing to ban deactivated firearms. Surely she will support this with a comprehensive dossier detailing how such a law will reduce gun crime, remove guns from our streets, save lives, reduce carbon emissions, protect all creatures great and fluffy and undoubtedly justify another council tax hike!
Perhaps Ms. Smith’s time would be better spent reviewing the impact of the handgun ban on related crimes….
In answer to your question my dear mollusc, emigration would be a terrible idea. With the labour government on the edge of crerating a utopian society in the UK, what on earth would posses you to leave? We have high taxes, an unstable economy, terrible climate, ludicrous gun laws, a rampant press and a future in nuclear fuel processing!
On second thoughts.....
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MikeEve
member
Reged: 06/02/2008
Posts: 25
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"Whether we like it or not, if a local force insists on imposing a condition of shooting we have little choice but to comply. "
... and if they ask for £10 to cover their expenses, or tell you you can't go shooting, or demand your certificate number, date of birth, Car registered number , serial number of gun used, time of start, time of finish, quarry shot etc. you'll still have no choice but to comply ?
Only the first item hasn't been done - the rest have, and with current police financial constraints - who knows ?
I was a police officer for 32 years, and I was sent to "a man with a gun in a field" many times, but only after I had asked my control room what this man was doing that warranted police attention. Eventually they got the message.
Let's take Devon & Cornwall Police area as an example: There are nearly 40,000 certificates on issue there - if every shooter told the police when they went out (say twice a week) they'd be looking at 80,000 extra calls a week.
Many police forces take a sensible and pragmatic view once they've learned a little about shooting see -
http://www.basc.org.uk/media/guide_to_shooters.pdf
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talkingcats
member
Reged: 24/10/2008
Posts: 7
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"Whether we like it or not, if a local force insists on imposing a condition of shooting we have little choice but to comply"
I really don't agree with that. There is no merit in allowing the police or the licensing authority to exceed its statutory powers. Provided that you object in a polite and rational way they have no gounds for taking action against you. When I got my first couple of s7 handguns I was told that I had to get a s5 authority to transport them. Absolute rubbish. I wrote to the head of my licensing authority pointing this out and got an apology saying that they had been misinformed by the Home Office. With respect, I think you ARE being defeatist.
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Insolentsquid
member
Reged: 16/11/2007
Posts: 18
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Well done cats! - do you know I was almost convinced by Belmont, Mike, and yourself that I could put away my passport and visa form when I saw a delightful program on the TV - something along the lines of "Let's justify the force helicopter/Camera/Action" - or something similar.
It showed a police helicopter being used to target(-geddit?) gun crime, and had some thrilling footage of the chopper co-ordinating a ground team (suitably codenamed "Sabre", or "Stromtrooper" or something similar)to descend on some camouflage clad miscreants with high powered rifles with,(gasp!)silencers fitted, who were suspected of bumping off Bambis in a park.
It was a textbook operation, all filmed with the helicopter's high-definition, image stabilised, onboard camera with the perpetrators, -faces clearly identifiable-, being made to lay their guns on the ground (in a tidy row so they all fitted into camerashot) by armed police.
It was a shame that if your concentration slipped for a second, you would have missed the commentator at the very end, grudgingly admit that it transpired that this had in fact been a properly authorised culling operation.
The message to Joe public was clear - anyone out with a rifle in the countryside is up to no good.
Come on BASC and BDS, - where's the outraged complaint about this propaganda? I would be more than happy for you to use a little of my annual subscription to fund this.
Anyway, - anyone care to recommend one of the more gun friendly colonies? - with any luck, pinching a loaf of bread should get me there as I can't afford the ticket.
PS - I hope you have noted that I have now learned to type 'policie' - er 'poilce', no, dammit, 'poclie' - oh - what the hell...
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talkingcats
member
Reged: 24/10/2008
Posts: 7
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Quote:
Well done cats! - do you know I was almost convinced by Belmont, Mike, and yourself that I could put away my passport and visa form when I saw a delightful program on the TV - something along the lines of "Let's justify the force helicopter/Camera/Action" - or something similar
I really hate those programmes. If me and my friends in NO2ID fail and we are saddled with compulsory ID Cards, no doubt we'll see on cops shows, the police raiding groups of teenagers and arresting those who don't have their ID Cards on them. And that sanctimonous Geordie twat who narrates it will be reminding us of our duty to always present ID when the policeman demands it.
As far as emigrating goes, I hear that New Zealand is a good place and has sane gun laws. I have no idea, however, how difficult it is to get in. My plan is to go to Ireland as I am a Irish citizen.
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