SlyFox
member
Reged: 25/02/2008
Posts: 18
Loc: Exeter, Devon
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This has been playing on my mind alot since being "converted" from anti to pro.
Is it possible to love animals and want to help them, yet kill them and take their meat and fur as well?
That is something that people always point out to me when i tell them i love animals. "dont you hunt though?" they say. So im asking you the shooting community, do you love the animals you shoot as well, or do you see them more as "products", do you see the soul and character in that animal or do you just see a walking pelt and next sundays dinner?
I for one adore foxes, they are probaly my favourite wild British animal, I like the way they look, i like the personality traits associated with them, and i just have to admit it but i think there kinda cute too. But as well as loving them i can also see what a pest they can be, and know that their populations need to be controlled. The same with rabbits. But i dont know whether this is completly contradictory or not. Both adoring these animals, but agreeing that some of the population needs to be killed.
So what are your views? Do you like the animals you shoot? or do you just see them as products for your taking? Or do you have a different opinion. Discuss 
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ROBERT6500
member
Reged: 21/09/2007
Posts: 122
Loc: SOMERSET
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I think your on the right lines mate,from a personal point of view I could not shoot an animal that I have not got total and utter respect for.
As a boy my father taught me to only shoot to eat, however as the years have gone on an awfull lot of animals need culling due to over population, sickness and a genuine need to keep them away from crops ,farm animals etc.
I`v spent years of my life watching animals,photographing them,saving their lives, looking after sick ones. I cant actually say I have out and out enjoyed killing an animal though,no never.
I have shot clays for over 30 years now to a very high standard and now coach part time, which in my mind helps to make
me an ideal person to do the job of culling as I have a lot of experience and know how to do it properly and accurately.
If a farmer in my view has to trust someone to kill something on his land, he must be confident that he has someone he can trust to do the job right. Dont forget farmers are animal lovers too, they wouldnt do it if they were not.
I do believe you have to respect your quarry but this is a personal view that won`t change for any reason. 
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SlyFox
member
Reged: 25/02/2008
Posts: 18
Loc: Exeter, Devon
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you suond like a very fair and nice shooter, back when i was an anti i just thought all of you must despise animals and have no care for them whatsoever. i was wrong :P
I had a weird feeling when i shot my first pigeon about a month back. normally i have no feelings for woodpigeons, they dont particulary appeal to me as animals, but i dont hate them either, i just have no opinion on them to be honest. And when my BF let me shoot one, and we saw it soar down to the ground, we sent his cocker after it, and she bought it back to me, and it was weird because at that point that animal was so precious and beauitful to me, it was such a weird feeling. where as one would normally carry the bird back to wherever you are by its neck, i held it, as though it was still alive, i wanted to protect it in a way, and it was just such a weird feeling. And at the end of it my BF chose one of his pigeons and i obviously had mine and we sat down and ate them together. So i felt really accomplished because id killed it, plucked it, preserved its wings and skull, *my BF gutted it, i cant deal with that just yet* and then his mum cooked it and i ate it. and it was just such a nice feeling know ive used pretty much all that pigeon, and seen it through till the end.
And i just feel so proud everytime i shoot something and so thankful for that animal, and this is why as well as eating it i preserve some part of it as well, so i can remember it.
And i must admit i see so much more animals now than i did when i was an anti. I mean when i was an anti i was VERY naive. I thought nature was like bambi. It sadly isn't. I mean i thought foxes were the size of alsation dogs, the british wolf in effect. I was quite shocked when i saw one my BF's dad had shot :P I didnt know there were different types of deer, i thought they were all spotty and adorable like bambi when actually theres different types of them. Found it very hard to belive that the muntjak that got pointed out to me was actually a deer XD
So all in all i think i have more respect for animals now that im learning to shoot, because i know more about them, and see what a great effort shooters and gamekeepers put into the countryside to help preserve the animals, and that with them killing foxes and rabbits, there actually doing it for the good of other animals. By killing 1 your saving many.
-Melissa
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benelli
member
Reged: 16/03/2008
Posts: 9
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Strange Topic.Most people dont shoot because they want to help the enviorment, and by shooting one pigeon your not saving others.
I went on a dove shooting trip last year in argentina in which i shot 750 doves in one day.I did not eat any of them and i did not need to eat them to survive.I go shooting becuase i love shooting, but i dont hate animals because i shoot a few partridge,ducks or pigeons ect.
Things like the fur trade and bullfighting make me sick, as that is pure cruelty.I do love animals, but i dont think shooting them is cruel is it is done for the right reason.I personally would not shoot a bear or elephant but i do alot of bird shooting.I dont normally eat what i shoot, i do it just for sport, but this does not mean i hate animals as a result.
I love clay shooting, and pigeon shooting is just a harder form of the sport,plus its like a mini adventure everytime you go.If i do help the enviroment as a result, so much the better.
Sly fox, i think you are on the right lines about respecting animals by eating them, but yo can still respect them without eaing them.As long as you dont go shooting songbirds or anything youll be fine.
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SlyFox
member
Reged: 25/02/2008
Posts: 18
Loc: Exeter, Devon
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why do you shoot them if you dont eat them, or use them in anyway? i can understand shooting foxes and not using them *though i get my BFs dad to get the brush for me*, as you cant eat foxes, but something thats edible like a dove or pigeon, why shoot that many if your not planning on using them? not having a go just wondering.
As for bullfighting, i dont agree with that either  But i do agree with the fur trade as long as they are kept in humane conditions. I mean the animals fur wouldnt be worth anything if they were kept in foul conditions as i belive if an animal is unhealthy its fur often suffers right?
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thehuntinglife
member
Reged: 17/03/2008
Posts: 3
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Well done Slyfox you seen the light
Benilli came on another hunting forum and quoted what you said, added a link to this thread and then slagged you off. He was ignored by everyone on the forum then when some did reply(me) who didnt agree with what he had to say, he deleted it.
He criticized you for being anti hunt and converting, probably caused by the ill informed media, yet then he can claim hes against killing animals for fur(probably from what hes seen on the tele where they skin them alive etc) - even thought he kills them for no product at all. The fur trade is less cruel (providing its done humanly ) than shooting for sport.
Another thing hes against is bull baiting. Why? thats a sport and he shoots for sport. No one can say they shot 750 doves in a day and they all drop dead on the spot, just not happening. So wheres the difference? Why does he have the right to dictate another mans sport but support his own, which works in similar fashion?
Hypocrite!!
Sly fox if people all shared views like yourself all would be well. Now im not saying every animal i kill is ate by myself, the majority goes to me dogs, the engines of MY hunting. As for dead foxes my ferrets will woof them down no bother so no waste there. Not for everyone and there ferret thought
Might i add im not for or against killing purely for sport
I have no opinion on bull baiting, its doesn't effect me either way.
I just don't like the hypocrite and do gooders when people are there slagging of one another of for there views which are perfectly feasible, even though they was anti, when the person doing the slagging of is too anti. Anti fur trade = another media propaganda which is just done to sell stories.
Lifes not black and white theres all shades of grey
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benelli
member
Reged: 16/03/2008
Posts: 9
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thehuntinglife, you are an idiot.And i did say bull fighting, not bull baiting as this no longer legally happen in europe.I did not eat the doves that i shot, but the people who run the estate did or sold them to the butcher as there are alot of poor people in sout hamerica so cheap food will always be snapped up.
What im saying is a alot of people say they shoot for food.They dont, they use this as a cover up for shooting.If i wanted food, i would pop down to sainsburys or waitrose, not spend a load of money to go game shooting in some remote country.
I dont shoot foxes or rabbits or anything like that, shooting them whould not really be sport for me and its a farmers job.Moreover, Alot of shooting i do is in places like africa and argentina, which provides money for the animals and there conservation, as long as the Game is not elephants or lions ect.If it was not for the hunters, why would they need to keep the animals safe from poachers and maintain a healthy herd of buffalo or whatever, its becuse it brings them well needed money.
Going out of your way just to shoot some foxes is, well not really my cup of tea my cup of tea, as i said its the farmer job.I like to go abroad to hunt game, where the money goes to the conservation of animals and so fourth, and provides a challenge and adventure for the people doing it.
Dont listen to people like thehuntinglife, he is a dimwitted idiot who has no real knowledge of how things work.I on the other hand have a degree in econinomic's so i do(not boasting,purley factual).
Most people kill and shoot for sport, not because the enjoy killing, it just provides more adventure and more of a challenge than clay shooting or target shooting.It depends on what you like to do.By all mean go pigeon shooting with your boyfriend and eat whatever you kill, i just dont think you need to keep the reamins to remberthem by, unless its a trophy of course
Regards
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thehuntinglife
member
Reged: 17/03/2008
Posts: 3
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Your the idiot. If im such an idiot why did you delete your post on THL? Didn't you like the response? Bull fighting, baiting who give a f*ck what you said. Both sport. You have a degree, and too much money to waste, whoopedy do. And if your efforts are to conserve wildlife in Africa, why not pay to shoot lions in over crowded areas? After all these cost a lot more and you would be doing a better job at conservation, wouldn't you?
Where is the challenge in being flown to another country, then drove around where game is in abundance and then shooting at targets you cant miss? 750 doves killed and you want to conserve wildlife, don't make me laugh. Your constantly contradicting yourself. You clearly said to slyfox that shooting an animal will not save others. If you want to save Africa send a big check over, stay in your own country and shoot foxes and rabbit to help out a farmer. Win Win.
Money talks volumes, nuff said.
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SlyFox
member
Reged: 25/02/2008
Posts: 18
Loc: Exeter, Devon
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im afraid benneli i have to agree with thehuntinglife, as he/she sounds more logical. A degree in economics doesnt mean you know lots about the countryside. And by the way the pigeon skull and wings were kept as a sort of trophy yes :P i think its nice to colect a little souvinere from each kill, but im weird like that :P
I dont think the fur trade is as bad as people think it is. Its no different than farming animals for meat, just a different product, and its not like the foxes can be eaten either, well dogs can but not humans. And i stick by what ive said, that they must be looked after fairly well otherwise the fur would be rubbish.
Melissa
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benelli
member
Reged: 16/03/2008
Posts: 9
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Get your facts right the hunting life, the mods deleted it, not me as you are unable to delete your own posts.
And sorry i dont like going around a farmers field with some dogs cathcing foxes for my tea.
And doves are not hard to hit? have you ever been dove hunting?
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James_the_cripple
member
Reged: 28/10/2007
Posts: 45
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Quote:
And doves are not hard to hit? have you ever been dove hunting?
Doves are relatively similar to pigeons, which are hard to hit most of the time. I'm not lucky enough to go abroad and shoot doves or anything else.
If you live in the UK you should support your country and it's economics and sporting heritage before spreading your wings to only shoot abroad. Isit that when you go to places such as Africa you feel like you have certain rights over those who help you hunt? For those that help you you should be really thankful as you could not do it without them. I'm asking not criticising, for I don't know you.
With regards to can you both kill and love animals, the simple answer is yes. If you did't you couldn't do it. Without a healthy respect and understanding of your quarry you would fail in both numbers and your enjoyment. I still feel the best times I've been out with my gun are those that end blank. These are the time I learn the most and generally see more of the animals and their habits. Once you've spent an hour watching a fox waiting for a safe shot you can really fel at one with your surroundings and have enjoyed watching it hunt and survive.
If I ever went out just to kill, I would give it all up. There are times when you are responding to a request to remove a problem that you may feel like a hitman/woman, but if you are successful it means you have put to use all you know and a high level of skill, if not you return again having learnt something.
To finish, if your BF introduced you to shooting and changed your views well done to him, treat him well. The experiences you gain in the countryside will stay with you forever, where a night on the town is easily forgotten.
James
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thehuntinglife
member
Reged: 17/03/2008
Posts: 3
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Hunting and shooting are two different things. Now if you mean have i been dove shooting then yes. I've shot doves but i don't pay some skivvy to do all the running around for me so i can go home and say to everyone "hey look at me i shot 750 doves in a day" Forgetting to mention how it was all handed to you on a plate and how much it cost you. At the end of the day you've got money and think your better than everyone else and going to africa shooting all kinds to try and prove this.
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benelli
member
Reged: 16/03/2008
Posts: 9
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I dont think im better than eveyone else, far from it.I have shot waterfowl in africa and one impala in south africa.
I paid to go dove shooting as argentina has the best dove shooting grounds in the world,i did not pay to have some one running around after me, i did not even bother to have a loader which was provided for free.
You said shooting 750 doves was not conservation.Your actually right, if i had shot 7000 doves it may have been conservation, but i dont think you meant it like that.40-50 million doves get shot before they even reach argentina every year, and only about 4 million doves actually get shot in argetnina, because the birds are so well educated and they know how to survive.They do extensive damge to crops like they do here in england, and argentina is a poor country.The government even though about piosing the doves asthere are that many and cause so much damage, but decided against it.
Shooting 750 doves would have hardly made any impact on the population,probally none at, all and they are one of the most hardest game birds to shoot in the world.And it was not handed to me on a plate as you so simply put it, but you have never actually been dove shooting so how can you comment on it when you dont even know how much skill is required to shoot that many doves in one day.
Regards
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benelli
member
Reged: 16/03/2008
Posts: 9
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To yoour reply about going to africa to shoot anything is far from the truth.I dont even have a FAC, i just used the rifle they provided and i was not even planning on shooting an impla.I was offered the chance to take crocadile or a female hippo, buy why, they are becoming extinct,i dont just kill for the sake of it.
But like i said about doves, do you actually know how much damage they casue.And to slyfoxes main question.Yes you can love and both kill animals,all my pets are rescue apart from my dog and i give monthly to charitys like comapssion for farm animals and so forth.
Im not sure how to reply in detail but the answear is mostly yes, apart from if you are an american.They just seem to shoot whatever they like.
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jwayne
member
Reged: 04/10/2007
Posts: 12
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firstly it was just a simple question and my simple answer is yes. i can think of nothing more rewarding than a shot at a wild goose or duck on our wonderfull foreshores. every saturday since the 1 sep i was up for three trying to get the chance at these wonderfull animals. i can count one one hand how many geese i accounted for and does that bother me, of course not. i love every thing obout these animal from the way they detect danger when a gun is in hand to the way your heart races when you think you hear their high voices calling.
similarly i help out on a small rough shoot wher we realease 800 birds and this year we shot just over 450.
that a very good return considering were amateurs.
basically the moment we loose a grip on what were chasing being brown trout,rabbitts, geese or doves, we must as country men respect the animal and quarry we are targeting.
i don't go out in the howling rain and gail force winds meerley to kill geese, i go because i can and i choose to so, as i have done since i was a little boy and i will continue to do so untill i can no longger walk.
it's not why we do thing that important, it's tha fact that we can.
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James_the_cripple
member
Reged: 28/10/2007
Posts: 45
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Quote:
To yoour reply about going to africa to shoot anything is far from the truth.I dont even have a FAC, i just used the rifle they provided and i was not even planning on shooting an impla.I was offered the chance to take crocadile or a female hippo, buy why, they are becoming extinct,i dont just kill for the sake of it.
You say you love animals in one thread and to a degree in this one, yet you don't own an FAC. Despite this and the obvious lack of practice you went and shot live game and were given the chance at a croc that needs to be hit very well in exactly the right place to kill it cleanly. How far was the impala? Big rifle, buck fever, unrefined technique doesn't sit well with me as being sporting. From reading many books and magazines the shots tend to be longer than they would be taken in this country at deer.
My advice, if you are going to do it and post about it, be aware that you can make yourself look unjustified easily. Learn well, dont boast and be careful on challenging others so virillantly.
A wise man once said to me, dont dig holes for yourself that are deeper that your longest ladder, instead use it to climb your way to respect. Which ever way the steps are long and hard, it's easy to fall, and if your not carefull impossible to find someone to hold it steady.
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SlyFox
member
Reged: 25/02/2008
Posts: 18
Loc: Exeter, Devon
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Wise words James, very wise words
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nfp20
member
Reged: 14/04/2008
Posts: 7
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in simplest terms 'yes' I am an animal lover in every sense of the word from childhood I've always been rescuing and repairing something feathered or furry but a few years ago I took a long hard look what I eat and how the countryside is managed - unbalanced due to human intervention and made an effort to learn more about the countryside, the balance that has to be struck and the food I eat.
I now beat regularly each season, have learnt to skin a deer although i need alot of practise still and am in totaly agreement with hunting because of the balance that it strikes both to keep numbers down and to give them a breeding season, new legal rules i don't in all honesty think have benefitted us or the animals in our care far too many are injured rather than killed outright and youngsters left without parents which is a real shame.
For all the public fuss about hunting and most was sheep following rather than well informed opinion the hunt at least gave these animals some protection.
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redders69
member
Reged: 27/11/2007
Posts: 11
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I like to see animals and wildlife and respect all quarry though id find it hard to "love" a wild animal , if you shoot anything it should be for a reason such as it is a pest , it is injured , its a food source such as driven game etc. I shoot because not only do i enjoy the challenge it gives me(you cannot beat a really high fast bird) but on our shoot we usually hit a bag of around only 60 birds each shoot day , if i have a squeeze and hit 1 or 2 good birds that is enough for me , its the day out with damp dogs and good honest like minded people that really counts, two birds also fit in the freezer easily too ! .If shooting were stopped a hell of a lot of uk animal species would suffer as a result of increased building , predators etc so i consider myself to be a defender of wildlife in a way. We all share a duty of care towards our sport and all target species involved and i truly believe all uk shooters share that philosophy .
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polmaise_gundogs
member
Reged: 23/02/2008
Posts: 11
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When I first read this title i thought what a great topic for discussion? it is with regret however to see the public slamming match between so called fellow sportsmen,whatever thier background or independant views!the moderators should have stopped this before it got to the stage of quoting 'swear words' at each other!
It is until i got to the last quote by redder69 that my faith was restored.
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