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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT6500 View Post
    Diver1....don't tighten your chokes at this stage mate, open them up and you will see your scores rise.
    Put skeet in the bottom barrel and 1/4 in the top barrel and use the barrel selector to change chokes.
    Use the bottom barrel on the closest target and the top barrel on the longer stuff.
    Straight a way it will give you about another 8-10 kills on your score card without actually learning anything new.
    Then look up "hold points" There's a good post or two on here in the coaching section and study it hard as that will give you an even better score. Around 70% of missing is actually down to the wrong hold point.
    Will do!

    I presume that FULL is the closest I am going to,get to SKEET with my Browning DS chokes?

    Everyday is a school day!

    Thanks
    Last edited by Diver1; 19-Jun-2017 at 08:24 PM.

  2. #22
    Veteran neutron619's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diver1 View Post
    Will do!

    I presume that FULL is the closest I am going to,get to SKEET with my Browning DS chokes?

    Everyday is a school day!

    Thanks
    Nope - full will be the tightest choke you have. Use "cylinder" or "improved cylinder" which are the "loosest" and will give the most open patterns.
    Freedom is having the right to offend and be offended; politeness is temporarily eschewing that right in respect of others; maturity is understanding the compromise and applying it.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by neutron619 View Post
    Nope - full will be the tightest choke you have. Use "cylinder" or "improved cylinder" which are the "loosest" and will give the most open patterns.
    Ah! Thanks for that

    Why can't they just Number them...I get confused. Improved Steel, modified lead etc

  4. #24
    Veteran neutron619's Avatar
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    Well they used only to have "cylinder" - i.e. no choke - or "choke" which was usually full choke or something close to it in terms of constriction.
    .
    Eventually, people decided they'd like to shoot effectively birds at distances other than 15 yards or 60 yards (i.e. all the distances between the two) and realized that reaming some metal out of a "choke" barrel, to make the constriction "half" of what it was, usually gave a pattern somewhere between the two so they called it "half choke". The remainder of the English system comes from fractions of a nominal full choke, which may be 0.035" or 0.040" depending on who you ask and when.
    .
    The Americans, meanwhile, wanted to do something different and came up with a different set of names for a number of constrictions between cylinder and full. They referred to the half choke as "modified" - I'm assuming because barrels were made with full chokes that were then reamed out by the buyer's 'smith - modified, if you like. In much the same way the English adopted ¼, ¾, 5/8, etc., the Americans simply related the words they'd chosen to each other and you end up with a pattern something like this:
    .
    • Cylinder
    • Improved Cylinder
    • Modified
    • Improved Modified
    • Full

    .
    The Yanks also have a few extra chokes, "Skeet" (which is sometimes "Skeet I" and "Skeet II") which are light chokes used for.... skeet! In short, some constriction is almost always better than none, even when you want an open pattern. There are also Turkey chokes (very, very "Full") and "Light" chokes, which slot in as "Light Modified" and "Light Full" (i.e. slightly less constriction than Modified and Full).
    .
    They have started cutting notches into the chokes to save people who can't instinctively follow all of that terminology the bother of learning it - usually 5 notches is loosest, 1 notch is tightest. Eventually they'll get round to using the old terms and we'll finally understand what they mean, but, typically, the Americans will always do the right thing, but only after they've tried everything else!
    .
    A few more things:
    .
    • Worrying about choke will damage your shooting. I'm currently receiving the support of my peers on this forum and elsewhere in my now long-running efforts to stop finding it all "interesting".
    • What's printed on the choke tube can have absolutely no relationship to the kind of pattern your gun is throwing. The only way to know what's going on is to test it, lots. Nominal "modified" is only a modified choke if it throws 60% of it's shot inside a 30" diameter circle on a pattern plate at 40 yards with the cartridge under test. Other chokes for other percentages likewise.
    • What's printed on the choke tube can have absolutely no relationship to the actual constriction the choke provides. I have a .410 which has a "cylinder" choke with 0.005" constriction. Go figure.
    • Most of the time, when people say they're using "quarter and half" they mean the chokes with those labels, not that their gun is throwing a quarter pattern and a half pattern.
    • Do not worry about choke.
    • There isn't necessarily any equivalence between any particular system of choke. English "Quarter" choke is not necessarily equivalent to American "Improved Cylinder". The only thing that can be compared is the actual constriction of the gun barrel in question - e.g. 0.010" constriction from bore size; 0.015" constriction... etc.
    • Changing cartridge immediately invalidates any testing you did with the old one. You cannot guarantee that the "modified" choke will still throw "modified" with the new cartridge.
    • Tighter chokes are not always better and people using them are not necessarily better shooters. Choke and the patterns choke creates are only any use if they're appropriate to the shooting you're doing. Killing distant birds with light loads through cylinder is a non-starter, but so is trying to straight skeet with full & full. The actual choke is not important, provided you have a usable gun / cartridge combination.
    • Did I mention that new shooters should ignore choke, cartridge and all that cr*p? Use what your coach tells you and stick with it for a year. Changing it will make a difference to the result - you'll miss a lot more. Unless your gun fits and you can mount / shoot it competently, change nothing!

    .
    Now for the last bit.
    .
    Modern cartridges, particularly in 12 gauge, are nowhere near "marginal" in terms of the pattern they throw. Assuming the shot size is roughly appropriate (small for clays, larger for game) then almost any commercial 12 gauge load will break / kill any reasonable target, provided the shooter points the gun in the right direction, irrespective of choke, barrel length, etc. This is the general rule - apply it always when buying cartridges, choosing chokes, etc.
    .
    In spite of that being true, you will hear all kinds of people, droning on about whether ¼ and ½ or some other combination is "best" for game, clays, etc. Why, you ask, would they ask that question if a cylinder choke will do the job and give the biggest, easiest-to-shoot pattern?
    .
    When you're a talented, serious competitive clay shooter you might need some choke on some targets sometimes. People will give lots of reasons for this, but probably the main thing behind the need is "market forces".
    .
    King Edward VII, shooting 1¼oz (36g) of #6 or #5 shot out of his trio of 12 gauges would have had no trouble either handling the recoil of his cartridge or killing stratospherically high birds. One reason for this - other than that he was, I believe, enormously fat - is that the average muzzle velocity would have been 900-1000fps rather than the 1450fps+ we're used to today, making the recoil perfectly comfortable. Furthermore, with such a heavy load, there were plenty of pellets in the pattern to do the job and because of the low velocity, they'd pattern very tightly - easily enough to knock down 60-yard birds.
    .
    Conversely, the modern trend for fast, light loads of shot does mean that shooting 21g of shot at a 60-yard clay might require a bit of choke to keep the pattern dense enough to break the target. Partly because higher velocities damage patterns and partly because the lighter load has fewer pellets, so the target is more likely to pass through the pattern unscathed.
    .
    (N.b. Continue to ignore all conversation about choke and stick to cylinder / skeet / quarter!)
    .
    Achieving the pattern density you need for that 60-yard target needs more choke in the modern world than would have been the case 100 years ago and we've essentially done it to ourselves, via the willing cartridge companies who sell us the myth of "speed" for the sake of a quick buck. Frankly we'd all do a lot better shooting mild 32g loads of #7 out of cylinder barrels! Trouble is, you can't easily find a "mild" load these days - even the "soft" ones are usually close to 1400fps or so.
    Last edited by neutron619; 20-Jun-2017 at 09:23 AM.
    Freedom is having the right to offend and be offended; politeness is temporarily eschewing that right in respect of others; maturity is understanding the compromise and applying it.

  5. #25
    Thanks for that...having read it , it has confirmed to me that I should not Pratt about with it!
    I have been using 1/4 and 1/2 since the day I got it and was improving slowly. So I thought 'swap 'em'

    Anyway crashed and burnt on that so I have done as suggested....1/4 in top......cylinder in lower ( I had actually done that when I posted about using 'full' in the top....I think it was a combination of Merlot and the effects of fridays Chemo: well that's my excuse 😃

    So we are off out on Friday to my usual ground . I will hold the thick end, point the thin end, stop thinking and pull the trigger and report back later with tales of my magnificent improvement. If there is no improvement who cares!....it's got to be better than working! AND we get to go to Malmo afterwards for some more cartridges and to look at my next gun(S)

    Thanks for the help

    Diver to surface, out

  6. #26
    Veteran neutron619's Avatar
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    The time will certainly come when you can prat about with it - just perhaps hold off a bit on that.
    .
    There was a lot there (I do have a reputation) but I hope it wasn't total overload. If it was - forget everything I said! I usually say everything in the hope of saying one or two useful things - call it a scatter gun approach to conversation if you will!
    .
    And of course - I think I'm right, but don't take my word for it. Other folk have other opinions worth hearing and shooting is quite a "personal" hobby; the hunting side more so, but either way, everyone has the way they like to do it which works for them - it doesn't matter if that's scientifically the "best" or not.
    .
    Following on from that, a final thought: there are a lot of markets where everyone knows what the best product is and wants to own it. Shotgun shooting in the UK isn't one of them - we've lost our way a bit. Lots of people know this, but a combination of shooters' prejudice, vested interests in the media, the need of the cartridge companies to make a profit (i.e. sell what their customers think is best) etc. means that we often pay over-the-odds for a sub-standard product. Or at least, one which isn't nearly as good as it could be.
    .
    What's on offer today - in my opinion - may be very high quality in a "quality assurance" sense (every cartridge goes bang, for example), but probably isn't the best quality in the pellets-meet-target sense, or necessarily best value for money. The problem isn't as acute in the US and continental Europe: they haven't completely forgotten all the reasonably-but-not-always scientific work that was done 80-120 years ago as smokeless powder was being developed to carefully test what worked best and what didn't.
    .
    The arrogant English on the other hand, see all of the late-Victorian / Edwardian "field testing" as an anachronism and state that if it isn't absolutely scientifically rigorous, it's worthless. In fact, it isn't - it's just not perfect either, which means there's still some stuff to study more and some modern developments not known then to be understood.
    .
    That's where I and a few others I know come in.
    .
    Good luck for Friday. Let us know how you get on.
    Freedom is having the right to offend and be offended; politeness is temporarily eschewing that right in respect of others; maturity is understanding the compromise and applying it.

  7. #27
    Well, there was an improvement! BUT it was very windy as well so I have an excuse

    Going again tomorrow to prove the theorem

    Annoyingly i was missing l-r crossers......when we had finished I went back and did 10 without missing!

    BUT I was killing some others at 40+ m so was quite happy

  8. #28
    Veteran neutron619's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diver1 View Post
    Well, there was an improvement! BUT it was very windy as well so I have an excuse

    Going again tomorrow to prove the theorem

    Annoyingly i was missing l-r crossers......when we had finished I went back and did 10 without missing!

    BUT I was killing some others at 40+ m so was quite happy
    I'm pleased you saw an improvement - we'd have been left with egg on our faces if you'd found it harder!
    .
    There's something about crossers that makes one direction easier than the other. I think it's about whether you're shooting left or right shoulder - but then not putting yourself under pressure also helps.
    .
    The 40m targets are an excellent example of one of the things I said above. 12 gauge cartridges generally are not marginal and you can kill some very long birds / targets with relatively little choke. The folk who shoot 12 gauges and argue endlessly over a few grams of shot here and there ("28g or 30g??") are really failing to grasp quite how much "wiggle room" they have. (Sorry to go on - one of my bugbears - but I mention it again in the hope you'll believe I was right ).
    .
    Good luck for tomorrow - I'll be happy to hear again how you get on if you're willing to post it.
    Freedom is having the right to offend and be offended; politeness is temporarily eschewing that right in respect of others; maturity is understanding the compromise and applying it.

  9. #29
    I am right eye dominant and shoot right handed

    I slot more r-l than I miss

    L-r are a different story...that's why I found it bizarre that I slotted 10/10 when it didn't matter

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