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  1. #51
    Veteran neutron619's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coalman View Post
    cheers Adam.
    I'll select the best of the first batch for further testing.
    I've just re loaded 10 cases with the same amount of powder and 36g of #4.
    SO..
    At some point in the not too distant future I'll try the 32g and 36g home loads @ 20 and 40 yards.
    will have to call in the "pound shop" for some more lining paper.
    I wouldn't waste too many cartridges at 20 yards.
    .
    I didn't remember to say so when I put my last post up, but your 20 yard patterns from the last batch are much more what I'd expect to see from a good cartridge - you've got 98-99% of the shot in the circle which indicates a good cartridge. Given that these are low velocity #4, I'd expect that kind of performance to continue. I'd be hoping for 70-80% in the circle at 40 yards, which will give you a thin-ish but usable pattern if there are about 160 in the cartridge to start with.
    .
    I managed to reassure myself I wasn't talking complete crap about the velocity thing, by the way. I've just done 36g / #5½ and tested a handful this morning. They're not subsonic, but they aren't far off - probably in the 1200fps range - and without much attention to detail, they're putting 71% in the circle at 40yd from full and 68% from half. That full choke is over-tight though, so it's probably knocking a bit off what it might achieve with something a bit less constrictive.
    .
    Generally I'd call a good result getting the percentage you'd associate with the nominal choke, though up to 10% more is usually possible if you hit on a particularly good combination of components. Still - my loading should go out to 55 yards quite happily, which I'm damn sure they wouldn't have done if I'd loaded all the powder the recipe was asking for, put it that way.
    .
    Funny old game, reloading.
    Freedom is having the right to offend and be offended; politeness is temporarily eschewing that right in respect of others; maturity is understanding the compromise and applying it.

  2. #52
    Veteran coalman's Avatar
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    Today I managed to get the measured 40 yards @ 30" in between snow showers.
    32g #4 using 15 grains of red dot loaded in a once fired English Sporter case.
    162 pellets struck the paper. 12 landing out of the circle.



    36g #4 same powder load and case.
    171 pellets struck the paper with 14 outside the circle.
    I haven't done a pellet count for an ave. on the heavier load.
    It's possible that due to not allowing for the slight increase in recoil
    some went sailing over the top.



    as an after thought. Both shots taken with the "Hatstand" (can't remember if it's 24" or 26")
    Which means I was using either (with the extra 10" for the Hushpower) a 34" or 36" tightly choked barrel.
    Last edited by coalman; 06-Feb-2018 at 08:13 PM. Reason: add a bit

  3. #53
    Veteran neutron619's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coalman View Post
    Today I managed to get the measured 40 yards @ 30" in between snow showers.
    32g #4 using 15 grains of red dot loaded in a once fired English Sporter case.
    162 pellets struck the paper. 12 landing out of the circle.
    *Breathes a huge sigh of relief.*
    .
    Thank the gods I haven't led you up the garden path! Taking the number above, of 163 in the cartridge to start with, that means you've just produced a cartridge that puts 92%+ of it's pellets in the circle at 40 yards. That's phenomenal performance and exactly what I'd expect to see from a subsonic cartridge. 150 absolute count is ample for pheasant and pretty good for pigeon / crow too.
    .
    Your main problem, if you have one, will be the pattern being much smaller than you might be used to, even from a full choke barrel: most modern cartridges will get close to 70% in the circle (though I'd call 65% more common) but that extra 30-35% of the shot is mostly still there, just not really as effective. In this case, you've reduced the overall pattern diameter to not much more than 30", so you may find it's rather like shooting a .410 or 28 gauge in the field (albeit, a devastatingly effective one when you hit things).
    .
    I have to go as wife wants the computer, but well done - good result!
    Freedom is having the right to offend and be offended; politeness is temporarily eschewing that right in respect of others; maturity is understanding the compromise and applying it.

  4. #54
    Veteran coalman's Avatar
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    cheers Adam for your inspiration and guidance.
    the decent crimped 32's seem to work well (practice makes perfect)
    the 36's have a bit more shot but the slight extra recoil caught me off guard.
    The lighter load is possibly less that a Hull 21g and the heavier slightly above.
    The moderator also helps with recoil and muzzle flip.
    .
    Used the gun on Sunday to use the "ugly home loads" and scored a 33/50

  5. #55
    Veteran neutron619's Avatar
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    Not a problem at all - I'm glad it worked out the way we hoped / expected! I know I just posted above about making up 36g loads etc. but if you're happy with the 32g load I'd carry on with those. I'm not sure 16 pellets either way is going to make a huge difference and you're clearly not going supersonic with the lower shot charge - though I wonder whether you're getting cleaner powder burn with the heavier load?
    .
    Either way, making some cartridges to your recipe (albeit, possibly with an equivalent powder) is actually still on my list of reloading projects. I've played around with factory subsonics and compared them to equivalent supersonic cartridges in the past, but never actually loaded my own subs. I think I will now! I'll note down your charges / bushings from above in case I end up with Red Dot.
    .
    In fact, I'm wondering if, post-second-daughter, whose arrival is imminent (and therefore summarily clears schedules for the forseeable), I could get you to stick a supersonic factory 32g cartridge through the Hatstand, pattern it, take a picture and work out the percentage performance? I ask that on the grounds that I'd be quite keen to write your experiments up as an article on a website to which I contribute.
    .
    I suspect that if you patterned a much faster cartridge through the same barrel, we'd have the clearest proof yet that the current fashion for "speed" is wholly damaging to cartridge performance. We've done some testing in the past which hints at this (the 10-15% number above) but we've never had anything as clear cut as 92% performance from any cartridge, ever - except that we knew it was possible with subsonics.
    .
    Let me know if you're amenable?
    Freedom is having the right to offend and be offended; politeness is temporarily eschewing that right in respect of others; maturity is understanding the compromise and applying it.

  6. #56
    Veteran coalman's Avatar
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    Firstly.
    CONGRATULATIONS.
    .
    secondly.
    I have some feochi? 32g suitable for testing.(think they're #6 super sonic)
    will do the same test.(same place)
    I'll also try to perfect my circle drawing and camera skills (to exclude feet)

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by coalman View Post
    Firstly.
    CONGRATULATIONS.
    .
    secondly.
    I have some feochi? 32g suitable for testing.(think they're #6 super sonic)
    will do the same test.(same place)
    I'll also try to perfect my circle drawing and camera skills (to exclude feet)
    Thanks! When I say "imminent", I mean that it was supposed to be last week and the Oberstgrüppenführer is currently making her displeasure at being made to wait longer felt... :S
    .
    I'm sure the Fiocchis at 40 yards would be good as a "contrast" test.
    .
    Could you put somewhere explicitly on a post here that you're happy for me to use your images and the information in this thread - if you are - and I'll get started on a write-up? I'll need a picture of the Fiocchi pattern, the number of impacts in 30" and the original pellet count of the Fiocchi cartridge as a minimum, if you're happy for me to publish your findings. If you wanted to throw in a photo of the gun and a picture of a handful of each of the cartridges, that would be a good illustration too.
    .
    I'm not sure whether to do it as a blog post as a sort of informal "I helped an acquaintance out with some reloading recently" or whether to go the article route and write it up as a proper experiment, albeit one which only produced limited data so far. I suspect the former might be most appropriate since it's a handful of patterns rather than 20 of each cartridge, but if you have a view - well - it's your cartridge, story and photos, so you tell me.
    .
    Also, if you want to move this off-forum, drop me a PM or an email if you still have my address. I suspect that the other folk may quickly bore of me interrogating you about what you did, how, etc.
    Freedom is having the right to offend and be offended; politeness is temporarily eschewing that right in respect of others; maturity is understanding the compromise and applying it.

  8. #58
    hey, this is cool stuff.
    because this issue with big shot vs lower shotcount per cartridge, have you ever considered larger subsonics?
    ie 3" versions with maybe more shot?

  9. #59
    Veteran coalman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptmax View Post
    hey, this is cool stuff.
    because this issue with big shot vs lower shotcount per cartridge, have you ever considered larger subsonics?
    ie 3" versions with maybe more shot?
    The Hatstand will take 76mm cases,but access to them for re loading would be a problem.
    I can get an abundent supply of 70mm "once fired" Another option would be to reduce wadding to accomodate more shot.
    Although if 32g (160 ish pellets) are landing in a 2'6" circle @ 40 yards then it's a case of more shot would be lead wasted.
    I did notice the 36g ones I loaded had a bit more recoil. (still no where near a 28g clay load though)
    Once the lighter loads prove themselves then "tweaking" will be the order of the day.
    more shot/powder and still keeping to sub sonic velocities.
    .
    .
    Adam feel free to copy/paste/use any of the information or pics in the thread.
    I'm just going to dismantle a fiocchi?
    .
    I'm going to do a pellet count on "an Italian cartridge"

  10. #60
    Veteran coalman's Avatar
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    Managed to get a couple of shots in this afternoon.
    I'll have to start counting

    Any way.
    The Hatstand fieldhunter.


    .
    Barrel is indeed 2 feet + 10 inches.
    and the "Italian cartridges"


    Same venue.

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