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  1. #41
    Veteran coalman's Avatar
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    SO..........
    Took the "moderated pump" to the local informal clay shoot.
    Armed with quite a few "home rolled"
    Most were using the 134 bushing and 1 1/8oz of #4 (32g)
    They are significantly quieter than a standard 28g # 7.5.
    Which in turn were quieter than fired from a standard un moderated barrel.
    Recoil between the home made subs and a standard clay load is considerable.
    Dare I say it's like fireing a Hull 21
    Pattern wise.(this is rough at best)
    30 yards = shot in a 2 foot dia.
    50 yards = shot in a 3 foot dia with a 6 foot shot string.
    Shots were taken in a dissused quarry onto standing water at around a 45 degree downward angle.
    Lots of barrel fouling with the home mades though
    Hotter primers aren't an option (I have to work with what's available locally)

    Ps
    crimps are looking better
    .

    .

  2. #42
    Veteran neutron619's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coalman View Post
    SO..........
    Recoil between the home made subs and a standard clay load is considerable.
    Dare I say it's like fireing a Hull 21
    Pattern wise.(this is rough at best)
    30 yards = shot in a 2 foot dia.
    50 yards = shot in a 3 foot dia with a 6 foot shot string.

    ...

    Hotter primers aren't an option (I have to work with what's available locally)
    Filthiness will be a problem - you probably aren't getting the pressure you need to ignite all of the powder, which means you'll always waste some. I'd be surprised if there's anything you could do about that, but (whilst acknowledging what you said) you could look at
    .
    • a slower primer (i.e. longer flame time so more chance to ignite the flakes)
    • increasing the shot charge to create more pressure (and lose more velocity)
    • faster powder.

    .
    I wouldn't do all of those together and I'd be wary of upping the shot charge as I said above. You could try 33g, 34g and so on, but you may find that you simply extract more energy from the powder for no noticeable gain. Ignoring the fact that 1g of #4 shot is neither here nor there in patterning terms, my gut feeling is that you'd probably burn a bit more efficiently but end up with roughly the same velocity for higher pressure.
    .
    I doubt a Baikal would blow up on a double powder or shot charge to be honest - the pressures listed on the Alliant site are middle-0f-the-road - but if you're doing it for no appreciable benefit, I'd leave it. You're still using XYZ amount of powder, but burning it instead of chucking it up the barrel - what's the difference!
    .
    As for the patterns, that sounds exactly as I'd expect. They'll probably be about 30% smaller than normal patterns and seeing pretty much 100% in the circle at 30yd is also a good sign they're subsonic. Normal-speed rounds tend to put 90-100% in the circle at 20yd and given your other descriptions, I'd be very surprised if you haven't got exactly what you were after. Good result.
    .
    I might have to get an old 20ga single I have in the cabinet moderated, now that you've inspired me. I was shooting in a relative's (large) garden with Hull's subsonic 12 gauge loads this afternoon and though they don't have the "crack" they were still pretty loud. To date, no-one has complained, but I may be better off not giving them the opportunity...
    Freedom is having the right to offend and be offended; politeness is temporarily eschewing that right in respect of others; maturity is understanding the compromise and applying it.

  3. #43
    Veteran coalman's Avatar
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    the 20ga is much more effective than the 12ga and the .410 even more so.
    .
    It's like I said earlier "if you can justify the cost it's worth it"
    .

    The Lee load all appears to have settled in and is dropping consistant loads/charges.
    I've found "thumbing" the primer in first and giving a heafty pull seats them better.
    the Rio cases/heads are still loose though and will be recycled.
    .
    gamebore/lyavale seem to re load (accept a new primer well)
    Eley are a bit sloppy (do they use an oversized primer?)
    Fiocchi Fblu cases accept the federal primer and crimp well.
    .
    Weather and work permitting.
    I shall try the age old penetration test tomorrow (we know these loads break clays)
    In a scientific manner of course.
    Ok it's going to be random bits of wood @ 25 yards to see what the penetration is like.
    I also have some "pattern paper"
    OK
    it's lining wall paper.

  4. #44
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    Due to the weather being diabolical recently and work getting in the way
    I haven't been out much (fitting a house alarm didn't help either)
    Anyway managed a few shots today.
    Box is A3 size (forgot the wall paper)
    Due to not being able to sight in the conventional way due to the moderator obscuring the bead,I bought 1 of those
    heatshields with a raised sight. Pics to follow. (everyone will hate me for it with the exception of Bullseye and GLS)
    This is what a home loaded cartridge patterns like @ nearer to 25 yards (paced 20 yards and I must have a big stride)
    Average pellet count was 163 for the load so a few went astray.
    Fibre wads used NOT a plastic shot cup.

  5. #45
    Veteran neutron619's Avatar
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    Interesting.
    .
    In percentage terms, that's actually pretty poor performance for a 20-25 yard shot (you'd expect 95-100% at 20yd from a good cartridge), but on the other hand, look at the pattern - what's left is mostly within about a 12" circle and none of it is pressure-welded from the look of it, though you do have some single circles that look suspiciously like 2 or 3 pellets together...
    .
    That said, I can't help feeling a little disappointed on your behalf. It's not as tight as I'd expect for a subsonic cartridge and I suspect the large loss of pellets is only partly accounted for by the fact that there wasn't enough paper behind them to catch them.
    .
    I'm curious - which of the fibre or plastic is it that they say you shouldn't use with a hushpower moderator? I wonder if the fibre wad is getting sheared by the gas ports and disintegrating early? I also wonder if it's just too slow. Every time I look at it, my gut feeling is that - assuming the crimp is as tight as you can make it without collapsing the shell - you need more pressure.
    .
    I absolutely can't back this up of course - it's only instinct and I don't claim to know reloading nearly well enough to ask you to trust that - but, that said, that pattern to me looks like the crimp has opened relatively slowly rather than gone "pop" and the shot come out all at once. Of course, there's barrel, choke and prevailing conditions which could equally well explain what you're seeing, but it looks like an "interference"pattern.
    .
    That's probably complete b*llocks, but I've been looking at it for about 15 mins now and the idea won't go away.
    .
    I'd always take the "full choke at 20 yards should be 9 inches in diameter" with a pinch of salt - except, probably, with subsonic cartridges. That's what's bothering me. Even for 25 yards, the pattern seems big.
    .
    Gut feeling (again) says that, provided the recipe allows for an good increase in powder (which I seem to recall it does), I'd chuck another half a grain of powder in and up the shot charge. I think you need more pressure in the cartridge, but not much more "push". Ideally, the powder is going to burn up completely before the shot gets 1/3 of the way down the barrel. I'm not sure it'll help though.
    .
    Good luck!
    Freedom is having the right to offend and be offended; politeness is temporarily eschewing that right in respect of others; maturity is understanding the compromise and applying it.

  6. #46
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    You might be right.
    Cartridges used were the initial "less than perfect crimps"
    some were flat and ugly but most were concave to the point where you could see the shot.
    Fibre wads came from Henry K.
    I should have used the "Stikal" exclusivly for testing purposes to get a bench mark.
    I'll select some of the better looking reloads and remember the paper next time
    Then try upping the powder slightly.
    If they're still sub and pattern better I'll be happier.
    If not I'll revert back to the lower powder charge and increase the load .

  7. #47
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    Glad you having fun testing coalman, I am almost done my 28ga airgun just need to pump up and test. but the weather is holding me back.
    *
    But started back on my other 2 projects now I got my reenactor membership and insurances
    R&D is fun :) BULLSEYE

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    Lol The government will ban gun slings and holster from the public to prevent criminals from carrying guns...

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  8. #48
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    Keep up the good work Bullseye
    .
    Right the dodgy testing has taken place.
    I remembered the guns/lining paper/marker (which ran out)
    and forgot the tape (lining paper isn't 30" across)
    Although.





    .
    It was blowing a gale so being off centre is an act of God.
    Due to 18" being the size on a single width I did a few test shots.
    Paper is about 21" and I didn't want to go right to the edges.
    Bonus got away with catching all pellets within the target area @ 20 yards.
    .
    Didn't count the pellets in the factory loads
    .
    #4's used were the better crimps from the initial batch of reloads.
    Slightly out of shot on the "Stikal" is 158 pellets not 58.
    Both loads had the same amount of pellets

  9. #49
    Veteran neutron619's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coalman View Post
    Keep up the good work Bullseye
    .
    Right the dodgy testing has taken place.
    I remembered the guns/lining paper/marker (which ran out)
    and forgot the tape (lining paper isn't 30" across)
    Although.
    ....
    It was blowing a gale so being off centre is an act of God.
    Due to 18" being the size on a single width I did a few test shots.
    Paper is about 21" and I didn't want to go right to the edges.
    Bonus got away with catching all pellets within the target area @ 20 yards.
    .
    Didn't count the pellets in the factory loads
    .
    #4's used were the better crimps from the initial batch of reloads.
    Slightly out of shot on the "Stikal" is 158 pellets not 58.
    Both loads had the same amount of pellets
    I suppose the thing to remember here is that you're looking for low noise cartridges and I'm assuming you still have those with your current batch? Otherwise, on the basis of your results (although not the accepted theory) I feel like I might be leading you into a fool's paradise.
    .
    I played around with the images this morning. I think the subsonic cartridges are probably marginally better than the factory ones overall - certainly through the Hatsan - but there's not a lot in it. Then again, "as good as factory loads, at the speed I want" isn't a bad result. That said, I've seen 300fps drops in velocity make a 10-15% improvement in pattern density in the past, so I'm still hoping for better.
    .
    To possibly string you along further, I'd expect to see a more noticeable difference at 40 yards than 20 because the "slight" deformations that don't prevent keeping the pellets together at 20 yards should have started to have a noticeable effect by 40. You may need bigger paper to see it, of course. It's also difficult to say how much of the spread of the factory cartridge you should "write off" - i.e. what's pattern and what's "fliers". Probably a 95% threshold outwards from the center would be appropriate, but the images aren't sharp enough for me to count them for you I'm afraid.
    .
    I think that, in the field, you should find them surprisingly effective, but I don't want to sit here and make too many more predictions as I'm in danger of being wrong yet again!
    Freedom is having the right to offend and be offended; politeness is temporarily eschewing that right in respect of others; maturity is understanding the compromise and applying it.

  10. #50
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    cheers Adam.
    I'll select the best of the first batch for further testing.
    I've just re loaded 10 cases with the same amount of powder and 36g of #4.
    SO..
    At some point in the not too distant future I'll try the 32g and 36g home loads @ 20 and 40 yards.
    will have to call in the "pound shop" for some more lining paper.

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