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Thread: steel shot

  1. #11
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    Re: steel shot

    I started this thread with the idea of helping wildfowlers home load effective & humaine Steel/iron loads.
    I think that it is established that commercial iron shot that has been made to CIP/EEC regulations. It is only fit for short range work & that if you used for medium/long range work will cripple/wound/maim a significant number of birds.
    Tungsten is very effective and if you have your reasons to use it then work away. I have a large tub of powershot that I most probably never load. The reason why? My steel loads are effective enough and cost 1/4 the price. IF YOU SHOOT DUCK OR GEESE WITH STEEL,PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE TRY RELOADING OR GET SOMEONE TO DO IT FOR YOU BEFORE THE NEXT SEASON.
    I feel that lead will be banned from shooting indirectly as the environmetalists have a far more powerful lobby. It will be banned under the REMOVING LEAD FROM THE ENVIRONMENT AGENDA. I doubt there will any heed to any evidence based papers from the shooting lobbies. The shooting lobbies need to wise up and get on board with producing scientific evidence. Lead has been banned in plumbing, paint, printing,solder and even in wheel weights.Do you really believe that lead shot & hunting bullets will survive the next 10 years?
    6.5x55 T3, 223 Rem LTR, Extrema 2, Old Army Ruger 45. Brown Bess 0.75", XIV 22 Anshultz, 682 Gold 32". Water pistol .001 cal(repeater non toxic, open sights, off ticket)

  2. #12
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    Re: steel shot

    Robkayak you can't change the law of physics.
    With steel you need to use bigger pellets, 3 sizes at least. Hence, you need heavy loads. I don't like it and if I had no choice I would give up shooting!
    I happy for you.
    About the lobbies, in my place we use to say that one counts the dead men at end of the war.....never before!!!!

    Cheers

  3. #13
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    Re: steel shot

    Flagg
    The laws of physics
    1/2 x mass x velocity (squared) equals kinetic energy.
    Leads CANNOT be driven as fast as steel
    Have you actually used Steel home loads?
    When it comes to counting the 'bodies'. Lead is ALREADY banned with wildfowling. You have a choice use commercial anaemic loads or try & reload and see the 'light man.'
    6.5x55 T3, 223 Rem LTR, Extrema 2, Old Army Ruger 45. Brown Bess 0.75", XIV 22 Anshultz, 682 Gold 32". Water pistol .001 cal(repeater non toxic, open sights, off ticket)

  4. #14
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    Re: steel shot

    Flagg
    The laws of physics
    1/2 x mass x velocity (squared) equals kinetic energy.
    Leads CANNOT be driven as fast as steel
    Have you actually used Steel home loads?
    When it comes to counting the 'bodies'. Lead is ALREADY banned with wildfowling. You have a choice use commercial anaemic loads or try & reload and see the 'light man.'
    I'm afraid that's not correct. Steel has far worse ballistic coefficient due it's low density, first.
    Increasing the velocity is not the solution because the loss is proportional to second power of velocity IF the actual velocity is equal or less than 250 m/s. For higher velocity the loss is much higher. You really don't need to push lead that hard because it will have the edge anyway at around 25 m, 30 m in worst case, even if you are using steel pellets 3 sizes bigger....!!
    Then the actual pattern density, for the same charge, will be far worse because you must increase so much the pellet size. Have you ever made a comparison between your steel home load and a serious american (simply the best in this department) magnum lead-shot cartridge? I guess not....
    The best commercial loads such as Remington NitroSteel or Federal Black Cloud are not amaenic at all.
    Rob there is no comparison with the best lead shot cartridges. Not to mention solid tungsten alloy pellets with density around 12 g/cc like B&P MG2 Tungsten, Remington Wingmaster, Winchester Supreme Elite HD, Hevishot. With these cartridges you just need 35g for incredibly tight, even and lethal patterns out to 50 yards. No match at all for steel.
    Do you really think that cartridge manufactures are so incompetent to waste all that money in tungsten pellets?

  5. #15
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    Re: steel shot

    Flag I respectively disagree with you.
    The shot density will be worse??
    I have just counted out the number of pellets from one of my No 3 steel shot 44 g loads. There are 315 pellets
    I have also just counted out the number of lead pellets from a No 6 32 g Black gold. There are 298 pellets.
    Thus even though the Steel cartridge has shot 3 sizes bigger it still has more pellets. It is well known that steel pellets pattern more tightly as they are less deformed.I would be facile to use the same load volumes for steel & lead. You use Steel 3 to 3 1/2 cases for steel & 2 3/4 to 3 cases for lead with the appropiate wads .Simples.
    The Black Gold No 6 32g lead shell has a poorer pattern at 40M and penetrates less of a phone book than my 44g No 3 steel load. Even when I use full choke with it. I only use 1/2 choke with the Steel.

    You say that I have no experience with magnum Lead loads. If you look a 3 posts back, I give the recipies for the most extreme magnum loads a 12 bore can fire. These are 72 g loads!!!!I have loaded, fired & patterned.

    Increased velocity is not the answer.
    Well rubbish. If something is driven with sufficient speed it will overcome its lower ballistic co efficient. It may loose more speed but will still be going faster with more energy up to a certain distance. This distance CAN be increased by increasing the initial velocity.
    What about American Black Cloud & Remmington??
    If you read the earlier thread you will see that I have no issue with Ammerican SAMI ammo. The Ammericans lead(pun not intended) the way and in fact without American STEEL powder I would not bother trying to reload steel shells. It is the EEC, CIP regulations that I and Charlton of Game & Clay reloaders have issue with. I ask how many of the readers of this thread can pop down to their local RFD & purchase Black Cloud shot shells?
    Also in the real world, Wildfowlers are not keen on spending a couple of pounds on Tungsten shot which although undeniably very good is so expensive that you need to put a sieve over the loo to retrieve the shot for further reloading.
    6.5x55 T3, 223 Rem LTR, Extrema 2, Old Army Ruger 45. Brown Bess 0.75", XIV 22 Anshultz, 682 Gold 32". Water pistol .001 cal(repeater non toxic, open sights, off ticket)

  6. #16
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    Re: steel shot

    Flag I respectively disagree with you.
    The shot density will be worse??
    I have just counted out the number of pellets from one of my No 3 steel shot 44 g loads. There are 315 pellets
    I have also just counted out the number of lead pellets from a No 6 32 g Black gold. There are 298 pellets.
    Thus even though the Steel cartridge has shot 3 sizes bigger it still has more pellets.

    Rob, as I told, I am happy that you have found your way but why are you questioning a clear evidence?
    You have a similar pellet number ( only 17 additional pellets over 300, i.e. less than 6%) for an uneven charge comparison. It is 44g vs 32g!!
    Now take lead n.5 and 44g and you will get about 350 pellets with more downrange energy.


    It is well known that steel pellets pattern more tightly as they are less deformed.

    I am afraid but this is just popular belief. Take a Winchester Supreme Double-X 43g and you will see....
    I don't use heavy loads but have done a lot of tests in the past.


    Increased velocity is not the answer.
    Well rubbish.

    Are you sure? At the end of the day, your Black Gold is very high velocity a Winchester Supreme is not. Have a test and you will see a huge difference. Guaranteed!


    If something is driven with sufficient speed it will overcome its lower ballistic co efficient. It may loose more speed but will still be going faster with more energy up to a certain distance. This distance CAN be increased by increasing the initial velocity.

    Is a poor remedy. If you launch a lead ball at 420 m/s first and 400 m/s then, at 40 m the difference in velocity will be 5-6 m/s only! With a steel ball of the same size it will be about 3 m/s. Basically you gain appox. 1.5 m/s for every 10 m/s increase of the muzzle velocity at 40 m (with large shot siza, e.g. n.2 or n.3).


    What about American Black Cloud & Remmington??
    If you read the earlier thread you will see that I have no issue with Ammerican SAMI ammo. The Ammericans lead(pun not intended) the way and in fact without American STEEL powder I would not bother trying to reload steel shells. It is the EEC, CIP regulations that I and Charlton of Game & Clay reloaders have issue with. I ask how many of the readers of this thread can pop down to their local RFD & purchase Black Cloud shot shells?

    I had the opportunity to watch the Black Cloud at work, it was just an example to say there are good original cartridges. Anyway the Remington NitroSteel are available in the UK. You can purchase them at John Forsey Guns in Kent, for example.


    Also in the real world, Wildfowlers are not keen on spending a couple of pounds on Tungsten shot which although undeniably very good is so expensive that you need to put a sieve over the loo to retrieve the shot for further reloading.
    That's a personal choice. In fact I am not questioning your choice. My posts were just related to the technical side and the fact that you seem already sold on the idea that it will be total lead ban in a short time. Well, in my opinion if one thinks so it will surely be very soon, if one "fights" maybe not.....
    The present ban is already enough, don't you think so?
    You can go for steel, it works decently and I happy for you but is not better than lead, bismuth or tungsten. That is a fact.

    Cheers

  7. #17
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    Re: steel shot

    The present ban IS ENOUGH but I do think that lead rifle bullets for deer need to be looked at.
    Thank you for contributing to the thread. I do find that the limit for 28 to 32g lead loads is about 1300fts and for 44 g leads loads about 1100 fts in a 12 bore as they crush too much. That is why I am not comparing 44g lead loads with 44g steel loads. If you are going to use heavy lead loads then you have to use larger shot sizes as the small sizes crush. Try buying a lead 44g load in No 6. What limits steel shot velocity is when the top,side & under spin on the pellets blows patterns at extreme velocities. This is why I compare 32 g lead loads with 44g Steel. They will both achieve the same result but the Steel will recoil a lot more & need a bigger case, BUT it is just if not more effective. I know as I have shot about 140 duck with it last season & when I loaded for other wildfowlers they come back for more and our cripple rate has fallen.
    Anyway thank you, & take care.
    6.5x55 T3, 223 Rem LTR, Extrema 2, Old Army Ruger 45. Brown Bess 0.75", XIV 22 Anshultz, 682 Gold 32". Water pistol .001 cal(repeater non toxic, open sights, off ticket)

  8. #18
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    Re: steel shot

    I do think that lead rifle bullets for deer need to be looked at.

    What do you mean?
    I think lead ban for rifles, in Europe, would not be a problem. Performance in this case is much less affected, in many cases can be even better, because you have a quite good degree of freedom in bullet design. You can achieve excellent ballistic coefficients and the lighter copper bullet (in comparison to a lead bullet of the similar length) can be surely launched at higher velocity without "side effects".

    Maybe a good idea for shotgun pellets could be a gilding metal (i.e. brass, 95% copper 5% tin) or a similar alloy. It is relatively cheap and already in use for mono-metal rifle bullets. The density would be about 9 g/cc, only 18% less than the best hardened lead shot and very close to bismuth pellets (9.3 g/cc).
    However I have no precise data about the hardness of such gilding metal and its usability in shotgun cartridges within the CIP regulations. It should be around 50 Vickers (10 times harder than lead), but I am not sure.

    Cheers

  9. #19
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    Re: steel shot

    At the risk of changed my thread. I support non toxic rifle rounds for deer as they are accurate,efficient and not disproportionally expensive. You should see the strength of reaction when I mooted this on airgun bbs.
    Deer bullets can be toxic to YOU and not just wildlife. The difference is that disintergrating bullets do just that, disintergrate, into microscopic particles that can get injected into the still beating vascular system to get disseminated everywhere the blood gets to. The problem is that blood gets to the parts that other beers cannot, like everywhere, including the nice juicy haunches that you have taken great care not to hit. Its the stuff you cannot see that you have to worry about.
    If you think that lead cannot get injected into the system then I have to tell you that in forensic medicine it has been known that when people have sustained shotgun wounds to their chest; shotgun pellets have been forced into the ascending aorta and carried to the brain where they have caused a stroke as they ballcock the cerebral arterioles. The dust from disintergrating rifle bullets is much smaller. rifle bullets spin at approx 280,000 rpm & disintergrate centrifugally as well as in a forward motion(axially).
    6.5x55 T3, 223 Rem LTR, Extrema 2, Old Army Ruger 45. Brown Bess 0.75", XIV 22 Anshultz, 682 Gold 32". Water pistol .001 cal(repeater non toxic, open sights, off ticket)

  10. #20
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    Re: steel shot

    I agree with you. Actually, bullets like the ballistic tip are never been my choice.
    I prefer mono-metal bullets or bonded bullets.
    Old style disintegrating bullets do a lot of meat damage as consequence of core fragmentation. High velocity coupled with mono-metal bullets causes very little meat damage and is very effective.
    The only problem with many commercial mono-metal bullets is that they have a tendency to increase working pressure. However I found the solution.

    I see you have a 6.5x55 rifle. Try this:
    http://www.gsgroup.co.za/264110HV072.html

    It's an amazing bullet! As you can see, it is just long as a Nosler partition 140 gr and has an excellent 0.466 ballistic coefficient for a 110 gr bullet.
    With these custom bullets pressures are even lower than most premium lead bullets and you get higher velocities. With the above 110 gr HV bullet, you can get 3050-3100 fps and average 0.4-0.5 inch groups at 100 m, using a good rifle!
    Also they guarantee reliable expansion starting from velocities as low as 500 m/s.....

    Cheers

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